Battleships Versus Command Ships Revisited
Alright I am back again with this topic. I do not mind discussing anything twice as it will make me smarter (good), help me find better fits (good), and see more deeply the thoughts of others (good).
Now last time I posted this on the forums, which I do not mind doing, got a few criticisms here and there. Many people suggested my fits were lousy and suggested their own which I appreciate.
A few of them included deadspace/faction/implants and etcetera. Since the target audience I am aiming at is for intermediate mission runners who want to know what direction to head for, the following fits I will compare will all be T2 with L5 skills. I know L5 skills will scale many things up, but just remember to put these builds into your own setups and compare them side by side if you want to see how you fair with the 3 ships.
A few of my readers wondered how I got my resistances up so high when they commented on the original post. To make this clear, my Guristas damage profile is set to 80/20 Kinetic/Thermal. This decision was made in part by the base resistances on the NH.
I did not use a passive setup on the Nighthawk because of a few reasons:
- Makes the ship susceptible to full damage of cruise and torpedo fire.
- No speed modules makes it slow.
- Not pimp.
Again, I am comparing the Nighthawk, Raven, and the CNR (Raven Navy Issue). Please remember, it is not pure DPS EFT shows that will win the day (or in this case, finish the missions fastest), but rather the effectiveness of the damage that is dealt.
TL;DR
I have made some changes between the last post and this one:
- Set the standard with full T2 fits except for shield boosters
- Set the standard with L5 skills
- Guristas resistances at 80/20 Kinetic/Thermal
Now let us begin.
DPS
Nighthawk: 659 (Missiles: 559, Drones: 99, Damage/Volley: 2573) Raven: 769 (Missiles: 611, Drones: 158, Damage/Volley: 4117) CNR: 871 (Missiles: 712, Drones: 158, Damage/Volley: 4803)
Important points:
- Damage is important, obviously the NH is behind both.
- This is only raw damage.
- 90% of the ships in leve 4 missions are not battleships.
- There are a good mi of frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships.
- Command ships use medium sized weaponry.
- Battleships use large sized weaponry.
- The medium weapons will get through anything BC or smaller faster than hammerhead drones will.
- Again, it is not just the pure DPS that matter; it is your ability to deal damage to all of the targets efficiently that sets your overall missioning pace.
- Just because EFT says there is a higher raw damage output does not mean you can kill faster.
Defence
Nighthawk: 640 Defence (40% cap stable) Raven: 528 Defence (54% cap stable) CNR: 571 Defence (52% cap stable)
Important points:
- With the extra base resistances of command ships, these things naturally tank just as much as a fitted up BS.
- This means while less of a tank is fitted on, more slots are available to be used for the damage.
- In most missions, a tank of about 400 or more is quite sufficient. For harder missions like Worlds Collide and Enemies Abound 5/5 it would be optimal to have a tank at about 600.
- The NH can grab the aggro of the entire room, set the drones on the frigates, and start killing the BC and cruisers.
- After everything dies, start on the battleships.
Effective Hit Points
Nighthawk: 97,068 Raven: 83,910 CNR: 125,863
Important points:
- Seriously, when doing missions, EHP (effective hit points) do not matter.
- This is not an accurate attribute to judge on for measuring ones tank.
- Still, the NH has more than the Raven, and a little less than the CNR.
Speed
Nighthawk: 408 m/s Raven: 118 m/s CNR: 118 m/s
Important points:
- Speed is still critical in PvE.
- In a smaller ship, speedier, ship, they are more likely to avoid damage.
- Long distances between gates or objects, those days are in the past.
- This speed is also a form of tank. It only plays a small part, but paired with a small signature radius this disrupts the enemy’s turret tracking and missile damage.
Signature Radius
Nighthawk: 390 m^2 Raven: 599 m^2 CNR: 626 m^2
Important points:
- In addition to speed, command ships have signature radius on their side, unless it is quad-shield-extended.
- In larger sizes, battleships take full damage from all forms of damage. With the smaller size command ships take less from torpedoes and cruise missiles.
- These figures are definitely bumped up due to using T2 fury missiles.
Scan Resolution
Nighthawk: 243.8 mm Raven: 106.3 mm CNR: 106.3 mm
Important points:
- Less time locking means more of using missiles, guns, or drones.
- Once the Raven achieves lock on those darn scrambling spider drones it would be a floating scrap already.
Align Time
Nighthawk: 7.4 seconds Raven: 10.5 seconds CNR: 10.5 seconds
Important points:
- If you really need to get the hell out of a place when you are not aligned, the NH has a much better chance to survive than the Raven, period.
Summary
I just want to show you the capabilities of the NH. For 99% of missions they are total win and can beat the Raven and CNR time wise. There are many other benefits to flying one (less likely to be scanned down, you look pimp) and I admit the Raven and CNR both have their places in running missions.
So in the end, I strongly suggest you take a look at it’s potential and compare it with other ships. Meanwhile if you have 2 months on your training plan before you can hop into this babe, spoil yourself and buy the CNR.
(IMHO, NH ≥ CNR > Raven)
I am totally open to feedback!
11 comments
Good read, I like that you revisited this. My only concern with suggesting people go into Command Ships vs. BS’s for level 4 missions is that people will be left where I currently am. I fly an Absolution for level 4’s. If I had trained towards using a BS I would be MUCH closer to flying a Paladin (Marauder) right now, which is much better suited for level 4 missions than my Absolution.
The bonuses a Marauder brings is Longer range, where my command ship has to travel to within 10k to do max DPS. Marauders also have higher DPS (great tracking on guns to minimize ship size differences). Can finish a mission and refit to salvage the mission much quicker than a destroyer or BC can.
Now don’t get me wrong, I love missioning in my Absolution, but I can’t help but wonder if I should have gone the way of BS’s first so I could be sitting in a Marauder right now.
@Phantom Slave
For me the choice was a little more simple. If one decides to do missions for their entire EVE career I would let them decided on whether to train for the NH or not, but this ship allows me to do:
- COSMOS (very well for BC size limited complexes)
- Missions (including L5’s)
- PvP (further down the road)
I guess I am more directed at Caldari missioners, but I hope this concept can apply to a lot of people.
Thanks for raising that point, between training up for a Marauder and a CS.
BTW: missiles for the win hehe.
Also try looking at a Drake for lvl 4’s I’ve found that it works pretty good and is relatively cheap. Minor advantage for people is that it’s not as racially dependant as Nighthawk, A person specced in another race then caldari could use it just as effective as they can any other battlecruiser, all they need is caldari cruiser 3 to be able to fly it.
What i’ve found as a decent fit that is passive tanked is going for high hp and damage output. 3 LSE, 3 hardeners and 3 bcu in the lows with extender rigs. Has enough hp to last long enough to bag enough npc’s so the incoming damage is lower then your peak tank.
My main use for this drake fit is low-sec, being cheaper then a bs. Though if I had caldari cruiser 5 I might be more inclined to use a Nighthawk
@Reatu Krentor
I have done a review of the Drake in the past (http://evewarrior.com/archives/review-drake) and I will agree that it is a very nice ship to run missions with.
Of course it does not compare to the NH or any BS in the terms of DPS, it’s tank can hold up more than some battleships.
For Caldari missile users looking to run missions I suggest this as their progression line of ships: Kestrel > Caracal > Drake > Raven > CNR > Nighthawk > Golem.
I hate to say it, but the Raven/CNR fits are still lousy.
Lows:
2x PDS II, 3xBCS II
Mids:
3x Hardeners: 2x Kin II, 1x Therm II
2x Pithi B-type boosters
1x Shield Boost Amp I
Rigs:
2x CCC, 1x Core Defense Operational Solidifier
I can do this with my skill set(much less than all V), and have nearly 140 more defense, total of 718 in a CNR. The same setup in a Raven gives me a tank of 671 vs Guristas.
Yes, the ship is larger. Yes, pirates hit it harder. In the end, it doesn’t really matter because in all truth, it’s overkill for Guristas. With both boosters running, I’m boosting 190 hp every 1.7 seconds.
DPS wise, I can run every L4 mission solo in the CNR; the stock Raven has issues with Vengeance, and then only because of Rachen Mysuna’s ridiculous shield booster. Tank wise, I have some issues with AEV Bonus room, but who doesn’t?
Oh, and since I hadn’t read the thread yet, Ig Neus makes an outstanding point: The SP used to fly Command Ships would really be better put to IV/Vs in missile skills.
@Aurea
I took at the setup you suggested. While the tank is higher (130 on the Raven and 120 on the CNR), the DPS drops because you are only using 3 BCS instead of 4 (-30 on the Raven and -50 on the CNR).
The tank is already overkill on the Guristas so the extra damage will help right? And with the Rigor rigs I used that gives a little extra edge on those smaller ships because there are no painters.
The skilling time would help if they were trained in missiles skills but after you reach that, you know, training for this ship opens up so many other doors for the future!
Appreciate the input, hope you reply!
Your Raven and CNR fits don’t have a full set of Rigor Catalyst rigs, and that’s compounded by the lack of a target painter. A truly pimped CNR (three Rigors, one of which is T2) will shoot a cruise missile with an explosion radius of 130m. Battlecruisers never see a second volley, and standard cruisers require no more than two.
That, along with the ability to do full damage against non-kinetic vulnerable targets and at any range is what makes the CNR a world-class mission ship. Any critique of a highly tanked, cap stable CNR isn’t very meaningful, because that’s not how elite mission runners fly them.
@Matt Skalecki
I did not know that was how people fitted them. It is an interesting revelation and perhaps I will try to give those fits a try before revisiting this again.
Appreciate the input Matt, thanks!
@Aurea
Agreed. While the NH let’s you do more things than a CNR(level 5’s some nice cosmos), it will NOT beat the CNR when it comes to level 4 farming.
@Matt Skalecki
That is true. I went for 2 rigors on my cnr and a Pith Type A med booster for the sake of being lazy and just forget about the booster.
Sorry to say this Tony but the fittings for the Raven and CNR are just crap for a pro mission runner, but I guess it comes to play style and skills.
In the end you don’t need to be cap stable and have a huge tank. I see no reason to overtank a ship if you kill before you even have to worry about cap. That’s what makes a good mission ship. Max damage with enough tank just to keep you alive.
Leave a comment. Feel free to use common HTML markup tags.